Create a masters Cat 4/5 class for 35+. Riders can advance from this class to the regular masters classes when they are ready.

Though I've heard that this is the way most events are run on the west coast (and very successfully), I don't think we're ready to support such a change yet.  Maybe in the 45+ group which had some great turnouts this year, but do you really want to slice the field in half now that it's finally starting to become a respectably sized field?

2007 Stats:
Average # starters: 
35+   -  18.0                         45+   -  25.2

and if it exclude the 3 events that had a decent turnout (Hell of the North, Sugarhouse, Chalk Creek RR Champs), then the averages drop to:  
35+   -  15.0                         45+   -  22.5

Splitting a group that usually averages 15 starters doesn't make much sense.
Plus - I GUARANEE that if a 4/5 group is created, they will be run with the 1/2/3 group 90% of the time.
And we all know of the issues brought up with 'race together, score seperate'.

 

I could go either way on this...... but what about combining 35+ and 45+ then splitting into an A (1/3) and B (4/5) group?

That would keep the numbers high in 2 groups but give the guys that are in the 4/5 range in both age categories a shot at a competitive race. 

Jeremy, 

I see what you mean about trying to bring out more riders. 

What about adding only one masters 4/5 catagory and make it 40+ (so you don't get the 'young' guys out there that should be 3s scaring away the older cat 4/5 guys).  So we'd end up with:
Masters 35+ (no change)
Masters 45+ Cat 1/2/3
Masters 40+ Cat 4/5

Jeremy,

He graduates to the Masters 35+.  Or the Cat 3s.

Yeah - I agree that something needs to be set up for determining how/when a 4/5 or B rider graduates.  USAC allows riders to upgrade to 3s after 25 races experiene, but how do you determine if a rider is too good for the masters 4/5 group and should be upgraded?

I still don't think the UCA can make two new masters 4/5 groups work.  I'm not against it - I just don't see the point in segregating them on paper, but then having them always being combind with another group.

 

The way I read this proposal, they aren't planning to create two new Masters categories--only one. Thus, we would have the same Masters categories we have now and they wouldn't change in any way. As such, anyone--regardless of category--who meets the age requirements could race in the 35+ group, the 45+ group or the 55+ group. However, if a racer is over 35 and is a cat 4 or cat 5 racer they can elect to race in this new category. Cat 1, 2 or 3 racers are not allowed to race in this new category. This gives these racers another place to compete instead of having to race against the younger Cat 4 and 5 racers or against Masters who may be racing at another level than they want to race at.

I agree that it may make smaller fields in the current Masters categories but I think there is some validity to the hope that it may attract new Masters to the races.
 

I think we are missing the point here.  Until we have larger fields (more than 50 riders per field) I dont' think we should be considering more categories.  We should be consolidating.  Many other state cycling organization use two Masters categories 40+ and 50+ and it works great.  40 is a more natural cut-off for Masters.  If an older master rider is just begininng to race he should be with the Cat 4's and 5's anyway until he has earned his experience.  If those groups become so big because of the large number of masters then we could consider a Maters Cat 4/5 but we are not even close to that yet.  The distances of the cat 4 and 5 groups would be just fine for a newer Master and it would be no dishonor to race with the younger kids.

 We tried this same proposal last year and it didn't make it, Our team would like to propose that the masters age categories be moved to 40+ and 50+ with the promoter reserving the right to combine the two fields if pre-registration does not meet at least 10 riders.

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Eric Thompson

I am glad there is some discussion on this. I agree we shouldn't make the present fields smaller, but I also think it's intimidating for some masters age riders to race with the established (1/2/3) masters...

I do like the idea of a 35+ Cat 4/5 field. Their may be some cannablism from the straight Masters Categories, but I think this is a good way to get the Masters racers who aren't racing at all right now. I have had a few Masters racers here in PC express their desire for this over the years. The 35+/45+ are tough races. I do believe that a Cat 4/5 might get frustrated quickly and not race again. Their are plenty of Cat 4's out there that are happy being Cat 4's and don't want to move up to the 3's. They would rather race Masters, but fear of getting blown out of the water by Cat 1/2 Master racers in the field. And they don't want to race the 4/5's because of riders still developing their riding (p/c for sketchy). If the numbers drop a bit in the first couple of years, I think we might see a good bump in numbers down the road, when these new racers decide to jump up to the staight masters category. It might be worth discussion that we have the Staight Masters category open to all categories (like now) and have a 4/5 event. That way the rider has a choice and can test the waters racing against guys like Claw and MZ. And realistically guys, are the Cat 4/5 Masters racers lasting very long with you or are they OTB quickly? In the long run I think this would be good for the sport and we will see bigger overall racers numbers.

 The 35+ 4/5 idea is probably not going to take away significantly from either the 35/45 1/2/3 or the 4/5's.  I would resist the urge to further break this down, i.e. having a 45 or 50+ 4/5. The 35+ 4/5 is really a "4/5" race, that is one based mostly on ability.  That is the most equitable way to segregate the fields, rather than having an age-based segregation.

 To echo some earlier posts, I would be reluctant to tinker too much with the masters formula that seems to be working.  This year there were actually 45+ fields large enough to deserve the term "field".  In the not-so-good old days we would have 10 guys in the 35/45 field, which is not a road race, but a bunch of individual TTs mixed in with some negative tactics.  Don't be afraid to let the fields grow above 50, that makes for a better race for everyone.
 

FYI the 45+ race I did at Chalk Creek was one of the sketchiest fields I've seen, and it was only about 40 riders.  Just because you're old doesn't mean you know how to ride your bike.  I would argue that that a Cat 5 is a Cat 5.   If you're going to have a separate 35+ Cat 4/5 field, then you should also designate the regular Masters as 1/2/3.  It's no different than the regular 1/2 race, you want race with the "big boys", then get your upgrade.

 

 

Is the goal to promote Cycling or have big fields ,How many 4/5 masters are there? If 5 guys came out that other wise wouldn't have I think it's worth it 

It's to bad every race has to have points ,Hence leaving no room for trying different classes

 

 

 

 

I agree that this category would simply be to promote more racing for guys that don't want to race against the other masters cause they are OTB and don't want to race with the young guys cause they are too sketchy. If it shrinks the fields because the guys who often are OTB in a normal Masters race try the Masters 4/5 field then it doesn't really change the race anyway. I don't see the need to force them to upgrade to race in the other Masters fields either since they will self select to that field only when they are ready and able to hang. Do we want to keep the fields big even when some of the field isn't having any fun because they are riding by themselves for half of the race?

This is a good debate and I am sure there is a happy medium in the middle of all these ideas but let me add one more thought.  Have any of you tried to put on a race before?  Adding a new category is difficult.  You have to slate in another start time, add more wheel support, in a crit you add at least another 30 minutes to a long day, sometimes at the sacrifice of other catgories.  I am all for promoting racing but showing up a racing with 5 other guys is not racing.  What if 5 masters 4/5 sign up?  Do you run a separate race for them or add them to the masters or 4/5's?

If you want Masters 4/5 and feel that these guys won't race with the younger guys then I would just have two Masters groups.  1/2/3 and 4/5's.  And you could split apart the 1/2/3 into ages if the prereg had more than 20.  I am a fan of big fields and think they are a lot more fun and involve more tactis than just a TT from the start.

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Eric Thompson