I'm not against this.  I'm not sure it will be successful, but it might bring in some more riders and it's worth a shot.  And at worst we can revise/reverse next year.

But as ET alluded to, this will likely increase the dreaded 'start together/score seperate' condition that everyone loves so much.

It's hard enough to coordinate and support 10 catagories as a promoter, any chance there is to combind and simplify is a no brainer. 

So if there are only 5 prereged Mast 4/5s, who should they get combined with?    Are there any Cat 4 Masters out there that has some input/preference on this?  Does anyone know of any Masters 4/5s that could help us out?

OK than , 4/5 , 35+ , 50+  still just three  but at least the novices aren't thrown in with 1s and 2s

Valid point. I proposed the combined fields idea for two reasons. One reason was to get some bigger fields, especially later in the year and second, to give promoters more flexibility in their race schedule. Right now, the UCA bylaws state to have to run every single race separately or not get UCA Status. It is rigid in that regard. I looked at Colorados field and their 35+Cat 4/5 field is almost as big as their Master field. I think their is a market for that category.

This seems to be talking directly to me, and other guys like me.

 I'm a newbie to racing, so if my comments make no sense, I'll slowly back away and pretend I didn't say anything.

 BUT:

I'm 38 and will be 39 next season. I just started racing and will be Cat 5 again next season and hope to upgrade to Cat 4 at some point soon. But I've looked at the Masters 35 and 45 groups and I see racers who are clearly better than the Cat 3 fields. No big deal, IMO. But I'm very hesitant to race Masters because it feels like I'm actually racing against Cat 2 guys and I have no chance at all.

The Cat 5 field are sometimes overflowing or capped at 50 because of USAC rules. No problem with that, either, except when there's a second field of Cat 5s forced to race with 10 guys in the second field. It'd be great to have an option to pull us 40-year-old Cat 4/5 guys out and let us race against similar cyclists. If only 5 or so of us show up, invite us to choose from the Masters or Cat fields we qualify for and drop that portion of the race. If there are prizes left un-won because of this, put them in a raffle for all racers at the end of the day.

I'll just say this: If there is a Masters 4/5 field, I will choose that every time.

there's a newbie's 2 cents.

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I ride, I write.

I for one would like to see just two masters groups and A and B group 35+ masters.  This would give you two large groups of racers with similar ability.  Usually the smallest group out racing is the 55+ racers and it would let them combine with a bigger field so somebody like Ken could work more for his team rather then going out for a time trial every week.  I don't know all the logistics of the points for all the different catagories but it would make it so at least I could see the finish line before all the winners are dressed and on there way home.

So will cat 4s be required to race with the Masters 4/5 group or can they race their regular Maters group if they want to?
If you're new to racing and always race Masters 4/5 how would you ever move up to race with the regular Masters?

More stats:
#'s of USAC UT licensees (men):
                      35+                              45+
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cat 2:             22                                 21
Cat 3:             51                                 45
             total  73                       total   66

Cat 4:             69                                 65   \__  total 225
Cat 5:             54                                 37   /

So if you remove all 4/5's to a different group, the regular Masters packs will very likely get pretty small.
(remember, half the 35+ cat 2 and cat 3 are racing their Catagory most of the time - leaving maybe 40 total Mast 35+ in the state)

I think you should call it the Master's B (for Beginner) group and encourage Cat 4s to still race with their regular group if their up for it.

I could be wrong, but I can see all the 4s going to the B group (which could get quite sizable?) and leaving miniscule packs for the two regular Masters fields.

The masters fields as we know it will be uneffected. I pulled up some results and the fact of the matter is that the Cat 4/5 racers aren't racing in the masters categories. They are either racing Cat 4/5 or not at all. The only category that might see a decline is the Cat 4/5 field. And with the new USAC field limits on Cat 5, I don't think that's a bad thing. I quickly looked at the Sugarhouse crits and the only Cat 4/5's showed up on the DNF's and there were only a couple. The top 10 was littered with Cat 2's (at least 6 of the top 12 were CAt 2's) and the rest were 3's. I think the Masters 35+ Cat 4/5 will catch riders that aren't racing that much now because there is no place for them. I do think the Cat 4's should be able to choose which race to do. If they are filling up to it they can try and see how they do in the Masters Categories. If they are strong enough, we have one more rider in the field, and if not we at least retain a rider because they is someplace for him to race each weekend and our overall rider numbers go up.

I am almost certain that this proposal is meant to allow Cat 4/5 Masters the option of going in this new category but not requiring them to do so. As such, if a Cat 4/5 Master feels up to racing in the Masters 35+, or any of the other Masters categories that their age allows them to race in, they will never be prohibited from that. Maybe Claw or someone from Canyon Bicycles can comment but I'm pretty sure this was the intent of the proposal.

I will chime in as well, I also spoke up last year but I might have gained a little more experience this year.

I'm a fan of bringing more cyclists out to the races.  Whichever proposal that best meets this criteria is the one I like.  I'm 43 and a CAT4.  To be honest, I'm not sure if I will ever get to a CAT3.  But I do like to race and enjoy pushing myself and competing.  Even if I'm not competitive and have a shot at a top 3 finish.  Does this mean that I should race Citizen? I want to race with riders that I have some semblance of trust not to take me out.  I want to race with racers of like abilities.  This is generally the purpose of 1-5 categories.  It works, except when people get older or still getting stronger and can't compete with the 35+, 45+ Master racers who have raced for years and years.  I like the Masters A and B group proposal.  Is there enough riders to warrant this split?  I see that the increase in riders will be in the Master's B group.  Riders like me will come from the 4/5's and go into the B's.  I don't think Master B riders are looking for National points.

Do you think the Master B group will be faster or slower than the CAT4's and CAT 5's?   

Instead of adopting a wholesale change for the entire year.  Can we run some test races?  To be fair, I would like to see more publicity or a campaign to bring out the riders who would not normally race.  This might increase that field. 

Sorry for being long winded. 

ScubaD

PS.  Long term solution = More Junior racers! 

 

 

MZ has it right... 4/5s could race "up" if they want. 

 Someone has to be asshole, and since no one else wants to volunteer:

 
If there is a Master 4/5 category, why should "they" be allowed to race Master 35+, i.e. Master 1/2/3?  At nationals, you have to be at least a 3 to race Masters and there is a reason for this.  Cat 3 is a pretty low bar.  It's like MTB racing, you have to be an expert to race a Norba National  in the age groups.

Without a Master 4/5 race, I can see the argument of having the 35+ race "open", but if you provide a beginner Masters race then that is where those guys should race.

 

claw:

MZ has it right... 4/5s could race "up" if they want.

Great to see the debate on this. The intent is to bring out riders who otherwise wouldn't race.

I am all in favor of more oppurtunities to race competitively, but I wonder if the Masters 55+ would just disintegrate if the 4/5s in that small group got a chance to compete in a larger, albeit younger, group of less daunting riders. That Masters 55+ pack has been getting larger (12 at Chalk Creek, 43 at LoToJa!) but races turn into time trials for most of us pretty early. I, for one, would be tempted to try out a Masters 35+ B pack looking for a little more tactical race.

 Stupid question: Would Masters 4/5 races be useable for category upgrades?

Posted on behalf of Pat Putt: I wish to express support for UCA considering adding a CAT 4/5 Masters 35+ field. I find that creating this field will produce a number of benefits. It will help to grow the sport locally inasmuch as it will encourage a number of age-group citizen racers to license and race on a more regular basis. More guys at the line makes races more fun. More guys training and racing makes our sport more visible and adds consumers for our local shops. This division would also provide a home for riders who are not at the level of our current local accomplished Masters 35+ riders or do not have the same engines as the 20-something CAT 4/5 riders who are on their way up. Put another way, it provides a means by which older, slower, but equally enthusiastic, riders can compete and not get in way of the faster packs. I believe there are a significant number of riders who would cross the line from citizen to licensed rider if there was an opportunity such as this. The easy thing about this is that it has no significant impact on the existing fields they are typically ahead us most of us anyway. Somebody told me that life is 95% about participating. Try it for a season. If it doesn’t work, discontinue it. Thanks for the opportunity to weigh in. Patrick Putt, off the back From Todd: To upgrade you need to race the category race, not Masters, to a certain point. All upgrades up to Cat 1 are handled locally (ie the UCA, through the USAC website). We take alot into consideration and due to our relatively small numbers we typically don't expect every racer to get all the points necessary. Each case is different, but if you are racing 35+ Cat 4/5 and are looking to upgrade from a Cat 5 to 4, I'm sure we will count those races as experience. But if you are upgrading from a Cat 4 to Cat 3, we are expecting to see results in the Cat 3 race.

Personally as a 43y/o Cat 4 I wouldn't race in a 4/5 Masters field because I'm looking for upgrade points. But, I do know a few strong riders in my age range who don't currently race who would be attracted to this field and I suspect there are quite a few more out there as well. If it were promoted and the word got out I suspect a 4/5 Masters field would grow and become a viable option that would draw more people into racing who might otherwise participate in other group cycling events. The key would be promoting it so there was a big enough field that would not have to be combined with another Masters field.

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"Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever"

Seems like there is a lot of enthusiasm for adding a single Masters 4/5 category to the current offerings.

Arguments being that it provides an opportunity for a group that other wise might not race much, and it also seems that it won't significantly deplete the current fields.