Ryan Barrett:

 

Bring it, the downgrade I mean.

 

As long as it's applied across the board, I think it's fine.

 

3 years ago I probably had enough legit results to maintain a Cat 1.  A lot has happened since then, and now I couldn't finish a hard Cat 1/2 RR, much less score points.  As long as all the other old, slow farts go down with me, it's totally fair.  The bar should be pretty lenient though.  At least one "legit" placing in a qualifying race, per year.  Maybe along with a one-year medical/personal extension.

 

Cat 1 > Cat 2 is probably the only "involuntary" downgrade that makes sense.  I'm not sure why you would involuntarily downgrade a Cat 2.   If you're a badass, don't you need someone to beat up on?  Cat 1/2 fields in Utah are pretty thin already.

 

Some people have downgraded themselves, always an option.

 

 

 

>I quess you're right ,We do need to keep those guys with elite egos happy

 

Ooooh, straight to the heart!  Nice!

 

As I said, I don't have a problem with someone taking a year or two out, but if you don't score any points (disregarding field sizes, etc) after that, I still think you should not maintain your category.  I am thinking of a particular individual (not from Utah!!) on this one, who did not race for over 10 years, but kept his Cat. 1 (road and track).  Do you think that someone who is (at least) 50lbs overweight and does not ride a bike at all should be a 1?  I guess an individual like that keeps putting money in the USAC checkbook, and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter at all.  It just strikes me as a little odd.

 

My other point was that it should be a little easier to upgrade.  Yes, I think you should have to leave the state as you get to the 1-2's, but races without full fields should not be completely disregarded either.  My reasoning here is that having ridden all over the country I can tell you that, the good guys here would be good anywhere else.  So if you are winning races, you would be winning (or close to) anywhere else.  The fields may be fuller in other areas, but most of those people are not racing for the win, so you come out almost even.  At least, that's how it looks in my eyes.

Dr Cross:

 

I cleaned up the quote, first part is mine, second is Turbo.  I don't think he should be downgraded, really.
Bring it, the downgrade I mean.

As long as it's applied across the board, I think it's fine. 

3 years ago I probably had enough legit results to maintain a Cat 1.  A lot has happened since then, and now I couldn't finish a hard Cat 1/2 RR, much less score points.  As long as all the other old, slow farts go down with me, it's totally fair.  The bar should be pretty lenient though.  At least one "legit" placing in a qualifying race, per year.  Maybe along with a one-year medical/personal extension.

 

Cat 1 > Cat 2 is probably the only "involuntary" downgrade that makes sense.  I'm not sure why you would involuntarily downgrade a Cat 2.   If you're a badass, don't you need someone to beat up on?  Cat 1/2 fields in Utah are pretty thin already.

 

Some people have downgraded themselves, always an option.

 ****End Darrell Quote***   *** Computers are hard*****

**** Begin Ryan Quote****** 

 

Ryan Barrett:

 

>I quess you're right ,We do need to keep those guys with elite egos happy

 

Ooooh, straight to the heart!  Nice!

 

As I said, I don't have a problem with someone taking a year or two out, but if you don't score any points (disregarding field sizes, etc) after that, I still think you should not maintain your category.  I am thinking of a particular individual (not from Utah!!) on this one, who did not race for over 10 years, but kept his Cat. 1 (road and track).  Do you think that someone who is (at least) 50lbs overweight and does not ride a bike at all should be a 1?  I guess an individual like that keeps putting money in the USAC checkbook, and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter at all.  It just strikes me as a little odd.

 

My other point was that it should be a little easier to upgrade.  Yes, I think you should have to leave the state as you get to the 1-2's, but races without full fields should not be completely disregarded either.  My reasoning here is that having ridden all over the country I can tell you that, the good guys here would be good anywhere else.  So if you are winning races, you would be winning (or close to) anywhere else.  The fields may be fuller in other areas, but most of those people are not racing for the win, so you come out almost even.  At least, that's how it looks in my eyes.

Overall, such a policy wouldn't change anything except the definition of a Cat 1.  I would still race the 1/2's (and more masters races).  This policy would also help out the masters who complain about Cat 1's racing in Masters races.  Right now, there are a ton of "old" Cat 1's racing masters.  You can't complain about one Cat 1 and not another, just because one trains more than the other.  But if the standard is higher to maintain the Cat 1, and it is only the true National racer holding the Cat 1 license, that person shouldn't be able to race masters.  If I'm 35+ and traveling around as a Cat 1 going to all these NRC races (and doing well), than I shouldn't be able to race Masters races. 

I agree. And that is why I think Master's should start at 40 (at the youngest) because, as Cipo is showing us, you don't start really slowing down until at least then. 

As for the point of having less time to train, okay, but what about the guy who works for a living at 25?  20?  Should there be a "master's" category for them? 

And about the name "master's", it really is a little self-serving, isn't it? 

Elite?  Yes, I realize that is far worse. 

Wait, what was I talking about?

Changing the definition of who is a Cat 1 wouldn't help Master whiners who complain about racing against Cat 1's, it would just mean that those same fast guys would have a "Cat 2" on their license instead of a "Cat 1".  Shaefer, Skarpohl, McCone, Treasure, etc are still going to kick their asses.   

 Good luck trying to ban Cat 1's from racing Masters, they can't keep Tilford from racing masters at 'cross Nationals, or Bostick from racing Masters only a couple of years after he was in the Olympics.  Thurlow wins Pro/1 races after doing 45+ crits earlier in the day for a warmup.    How many "Masters" world MTB titles does Tilford have?  Was it "fair" that Chris Walker was racing Masters the same year he won the Elite road race, and a couple years earlier he won the Masters RR.  And so on.

Steve Johnson was a Cat 1 when I started racing.  At least once he won the 35+ state Utah crit wearing the Masters National Champions jersey.  Seems like a time-honored tradition.

 
Who deserves to be a Cat 1 is *the* best argument in Utah cycling.  It's timeless.  Todd and Ryan are late to this argument, and they don't have the personalities to really lay down the smack.  We need Thomas and Bill Harris to weigh in on this conversation, then it will start to get fun.

 I don't think USA cycling wants to downgrade Cat 1's.  It will just piss a bunch of people off, and won't really accomplish anything.  As I said, I don't really care what it says on my license, I've got much bigger issues to deal with.

There are lots of undeserving people in the world with lofty titles.

 Darrell Davis (Ph.D)
 

I don't expect the Fed's to change anything, but it is a nice why to take 10 minutes out of my day.  If they were to downgrade riders and reestablish the Cat 1.  I think you might have bigger bragging rights that "I used to be a Cat 1."  What does having a Cat 1 mean now... not much. Many Cat 1's around the country got their Cat 1's because they were good Cat 2's and had a good relationship with the District Rep. And I think many of us know the story behind many Utah Cat 1's.  That's one of the reasons I've been a ball buster on upgrades.  We have riders requesting Cat 1 upgrades without even getting a top 3 let alone a win in local races.  Since we started this discussion about the new upgrades I think a few years down the road, it will all work itself out.  If they stick to their guns on the upgrade procedure, in 3 or 4 years, there will be fewer and fewer CAt 1's, as us old Cat 1's start "retiring" or dying.  I not sure who the next Cat 1 will be coming out of Utah.  Remember, that rider has to have a better year than Dave Harward last year.  They have to have a year like Bryson who was dominate for a couple of months. 

Todd ( BA from a state school- 5yrs and a 2.5gpa!!  Take that Dr. X!  How do you like that SMACK!!!!!)

You're right, this is fun.

I think the feds should stick to their upgrade procedures.  I remember going to CA to race Cat 2 only races of 100+ fields since no local races met the field size requirement.  Louder, Al Butler, and I all raced Wine Country together one year, chasing points.   Jeff and Al scored upgrade points, my sprint let me down, as usual.   On the first lap we were already catching Cat 1's that had been dropped on the climb in the Pro/1 race.  Blah, Blah, Blah.  Point is, local riders should be willing to race out of state if they want to be Cat 1's, that is what *most* of the current Cat 1's had to do.  That's what I did, and then I sent my upgrade request directly to CO Springs since I was told "district reps don't handle Cat 1 upgrades".  For the record.

My opinion is that Cat 1's should be willing to do Cat 1 races.  If they aren't interested in that, then they shouldn't complain if there license renewal comes back with a "2" on it.  I don't see it happening, but wouldn't complain if it happened to me.  It's fair.

 No smack for now, but when it becomes necessary, I'm warning you that I'm going to have Cooke deliver it.  He's a Cat 1 you know.

Back to work. 

I know it's a bit off topic, but I was just reading through all of this discussion.  There was a comment about Nate Page being lucky in his upgrade.  I just wanted to remind anyone that cares, in addition to his local results, he also finished 3rd in the Valley of the Sun road race (5 points) and 3rd in the final GC (15 points).......he certainly would have received his upgrade regardless of which point structure was being used.  Although it doesn't count for anything but bragging rights, he was also the 3rd placed cat 2 rider at the Mt. Hood Stage Race.  Just thought he deserved a little credit for his out of state results,

Alex 

That was my bad.  I certainly didn't mean to dis Nate.  He did what was necessary to get his Cat 1.  My apologies to Nate if I slighted him.  It wasn't my intention.  I was trying to illustrate how it will be tougher to get the Cat 1 this year over years past.
Sorry Nate

Todd 

Be careful Todd or Dr X will sic Cooke on you,And than Cooke will start racing and kick the crap out of me and it will be your fault

Grumpy MS

Sorry man!  I promised myself not even to start talking bike talk until after Masters World's next week.  I haven't turned a pedal since November, so I think I'll just shut the hell up for a while.

Nice work at Yellowstone, hope to see you in McCall next week to beat up on all the Euros and Ruskies.

I'll shut up until I put in Mile 1.

Until than.... Ta!! 

Yellowstone was pretty thin everyone was at the Birkie,I'm not mcCall worthy so I'll live Vicariously thru you next week,Good luck .

I'm putting miles in already to get a head start on you.... I need it.