Thought it might be time for some mid-season discussion about the new timing system. As I understand it the use of a chip timing system was mandated by the UCA with the goal of providing timely and accurate results which would in turn attract more racers. I wonder if those goals are being met? It seems that I hear more complaints than praise for the system. We have heard about a number of issues affecting results: Chips not being registered by racers, Chips being insulated by electrical tape and wrong chip numbers on the cases. Addressing and correcting these issues has understandably taken some time, but I don't understand why the system seems to produce eratic and arbitrary results as we saw at the State TT, where some racers were given faster times than others who passed them and chip times were faster than the "manual" times which agreed with most racers computers. Are the problems due to user error? Is the Winning Time system not capable of meeting our needs - if so is there any help the vendor can provide? I'm not looking to start a bitch session, just would like to get a better understanding of what is going on with this system and if there is anything else we (racers) can do to help ensure accuracy.

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"Pain is temporary, quitting lasts forever"

Hear hear!

 

 

 

I timed my run using my Garmin Edge 305, and the results that were posted were 14 seconds off from the lap time I recorded.  That seems like a pretty huge amount of error.  How could it be so far off? 

I have been out of town, so I don't have that much information concerning what happened on Saturday.  But, I do know that there was a difference of about 14 seconds between the actual times and the chip timing.  This is caused by the box that is timing the chips and the actual start times of the riders being off by 14 seconds.  All the riders had the same difference.  In other words, one had a time of 12:00.00 and the other had a time of 12:00.14. 

 This would not change the results.  Everyone would have the same 14 second difference.  THe clokcs were just not sychronized.

 Ferg

Here is what I think.  As racers, we pay to race.  In return, some will win money or prizes, but the vast majority of the racers just pay for the race, accurate results, and the chance to see their name and (accurate) result in print.  Other organizations can do this.  Synching timing clocks is not that hard.  Neither is subtracting 14 seconds off the times.  I think that the promoters/officials/timing system need to uphold their end of the deal or refund the entry fees paid by the racers.  There is no excuse for not having 2 times written down for EVERY racer--one chip timed and the other written down by the official.  We had to wear numbers and there seemed to be plenty of officials. 

Thank you Shane for starting this thread. It is timely and needed as people are understandably upset with the performance of the timing chips. I suggest that all the people who have issues or questions about this, please post them here so the UCA board members can answer them one-on-one.

Honestly, there are some misconceptions floating around right now. Frankly, some of what I have been reading lately comes from a perspective of little or no "real" information.  It would be helpful if you will post your questions in a thoughtful and logical way, conspiracy theories and rabble-rousers need not apply.

The fact is, there have been some problems with the timing system as many have pointed out. I would like to propose we focus on eliminating misinformation first, then striving for a solution. I believe the system will eventually give us what we all want: accurate and timely scoring. Please refrain from making judgments like about individuals or companies until you know the facts.

Thanks, Jeff Clawson

I agree with a lot of the comments on here. We have been forced to buy a chip that is supposed to ensure accurate results, and we are forced to pay extra dollars on each registration for services that don't seem to be met. For the past two weeks my name has not even made it to the results on this website somehow. I had my chip, number and checked results after the races to make sure everything was good, and was left to see that after all my extra efforts and money paid, I still had to send e-mails just to see my name on the results.

The state time trial was an embarrasment plain and simple. Triathlons, Marathons, NRC stage races all have systems in place that deliver reliable results in a very timely manner, including online posting.

I am a very patient and understanding person and realize that it will take some trial and error to get this system dialed. I was actually excited to see that we were going to go forward with the chip system at the beginning of the year, because it has potential for long term benefits. We just need to get the system dialed.

What I might suggest is that the owners of the timing system and equipment talk with the timers that do big events such as marathons, triathlons etc. and get feedback from them about the best way to ensure excellent results and posting.

Everything said here is meant to be taken as constructive critism. I really appreciate everything that the promoters, officials and anyone else involved contributes to make it possible for all of us endorphine junkies to get together and beat each other up! We have a great racing series here in Utah, so let's stay positive and make it a place that attracts more people and better competition!

 -Sohm

I actually like having the chip very much.  It seems like there haven't been as many DNSs on the last couple of races so maybe that problem has been ironed out.  I also liked hearing the audible beep every time I rolled over the start/finish line up at the Gap.  That was a little reassuring that my chip would be read.  There should be other opportunities like that to check that your chip is still working.   I do think the field size listed for the race should be set by a head count at the start, and not by the number of folks crossing the finish line with a chip.  That effects upgrade points.  I would think if you pick up your number, and they never get you crossing the finish line you should be listed as a DNF instead of a DNS, unless you tell the officials you can’t start for some reason.

Definitely some issues. 

I am pretty sure that SBO is doing everything they can so we get good results.  I know they want to get this right and give racers kick butt results.

 I am sure with some time they will get this dialed. 

 BUT............For now we need cameras and officials still taking score.  We have to have a camera at all races.  I think that is KEY.  With a camera we can go backwards and solve about any problem.  Even with wrinkled numbers I could pick out 99% of racers by bike brand and helmet.  We have to have a camera! Even when the timing chips take over the world we will still need a camera just in case.  So I want the UCA to record all finishes.  If you had a tape of the finish this past weekend at the state TT we could easily figure out the times of 99% of the racers.

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sam krieg
www.kriegcycling.com

Hi Jeff,

I think you are correct in saying that there are a lot of misconceptions floating around.  I do not think that we have one problem in the reporting of our results.  If that were the case we would have had this resolved a long time ago.  The Winning Time chips, while I’m sure they have their problems, are not the only issue with results. The errors in the results are not always the same type of errors.  To list a few…

• The finishing order of riders is not correct
• Riders that finish are not reported
• Riders that did not enter a race are reported as finishing
• The results that were provided the day of the race and certified by the officials are not what shows up on the UCA site
• The actual time recorded is incorrect
• One rider that does not even have a USAC license is scoring points on the UCA site

These errors almost certainly have different root causes and different groups responsible for each type of error.  We have 3 to 5 distinct groups (depending on how you look at it) that need to work together for us to see the correct results on the UCA site…Race Promoters  (Most using SBO and Winning Time), USAC Officials, and the UCA.  That’s complicated. I think a good place to start is if you could explain the whole process and how it is supposed to work so that we are all on the same page.  What I have seen many times when there is an issue is finger pointing from one of the above groups to another.  If we all understood who was responsible for each step in the results process we would have a better idea where the problem was on any given issue.

I also suggest that we set up a way to track the issues that we have for each race and then make them public.  How many results were disputed?  At what point in the process did each issue occur?  How was the error resolved? Who (what group) was responsible for each specific error?  How do we prevent it in the future?  Transparency would help us all better understand where the issues are, and hold each group responsible for their part.

For a specific example – One you worked on with me is the Bear Lake race results for the 3s.  The first 3 riders did not show up on the UCA results page.  This was most likely not a timing chip issue, however I heard people saying “Yeah that stupid chip system can’t even get the top three riders!”  This could have been an issue with the promoter, the officials, SBO, or UCA.  I really doubt the chip system missed all three of those riders.  We as riders don’t know.  Without an explanation as to what happened, “It’s the damn chip system!”.

Obviously this is a big issue.  My fear is that when it comes to next year’s UCA meeting we will all be so disgusted with the results that we will discontinue the use of the timing chips even if our issues have nothing to do with them.  I personally believe that the chips are probably working just fine (with a few exceptions of course) and that many of our issues are elsewhere.  If we can find where the majority of our issues are coming from, we can direct our efforts towards correcting them.  However if we just have speculation as to the cause of our issues, we may throw out a perfectly good system because a different part of the process isn’t working.

BTW – I am totally chip neutral.  I think it is working.  But if it is the culprit in all of our results issues, then let’s kill it!  (Besides, I had to spend $1536 to offset the aerodynamic loss it causes by attaching to the fork of my TT bike.) Thanks very much for all the hard work and effort you are putting into this.  It is much appreciated!

Nick Ekdahl

Maybe if the riders had some more information on what was going on and what the difficulties were, they would "refrain from making judgements like about individuals or companies".  So give us the facts. 

Please... ;)

I don't want to see the chips scrapped. I think they will work and are working. I want to get them working so we have fast and accurate results.  I think it can be done.

 

 

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sam krieg
www.kriegcycling.com

I will get a start on these questions, keep in mind I don't know everything, but I will attempt to give an accounting of what I see happening, starting at the top and working down. I am sure others will want to address your questions too.

 Shane mentioned the State TT. The chips worked as they were supposed to until the results for the cat 1/2s were uploaded. There was apparently some bad data in the file and it caused the software to malfunction. That's why there were inaccurate results. The data files are rather complicated and they download to software that sorts the data and generates results. There are a lot of outside factors that affect the results, like number of laps, the rider's chip IDs, etc etc. that need to be stipulated in the process of generating results.

The other issues Shane mentioned are real problems. The electrical tape was something we found about several weeks ago, and we sent out an email to the UCA membership, as well as posted it on this site. We also distributed flyers detailing correct chip mounting at Bear Lake. To let you know, I spotted 3 riders at the State TT with electrical tape wrapped arounds their chips. Obvoiusly they did not know about it, but it shows that it takes time for everyone to get on board, and their results might have been compromised by the tape if I had not told them. 

Some chip ID numbers were printed wrong on the papers Winning Time sent with the chips. And some riders have entered their code wrong (common mistakes like an "O" entered as a "zero")... These anomalies are only uncovered whan an individual rider sees a mistake, missed result, missing time, etc. All these issues have had to be sorted out by SBO.

There were a few chips that were reading before the line, thereby registering a false finish. Some were reading after the line too. These bad chips have been replaced, but this caused much confusion for the riders and SBE. If this continues to be a problem, the only way we can find out is as we proceed.

Mike, we owe you an apology for your results not being reported correctly on the UCA site. They were scored correctly at the races (I know you had to protest after the race), but the excel files that came from the race are split up into separate classes to be downloaded into the UCA site, and I am guessing that there was some human error when the files were split. You did not do anything wrong, in fact, by making sure yor results were correct at the race you made it easy for me to change. There was another error that occurred after the Jordanelle Crit where the wrong sheets were taken after the race and downloaded to the site. You were, coincidentally, affected by both these understandable yet real errors. I will continue to work with you if you ever need a result fixed as long as the official results from that race are correct. As we have stated many times, check your results after the race and make sure they are correct.

 To your suggestion about checking with marathon and triathlon organizers, you must know that bike racing is a much different animal to score. Think about the downtown crit: 50-70 riders doing multiple laps, and large packs of riders finishing on the same second... that's a LOT of data for the software to process. The people from SBE, SBO and Winning Time are the best ones to figure out how to get the system performing.

Sam, you are right about the cameras. We need to have that backup especially now as we are trying to sort out the myriad of problems. The UCA does not presently own finish line cameras, SBE has been nice enough to use them as a backup, thank heavens.

OK Nick, I will attempt to answer the questions I feel I have not already. You will have to let me know if I cover it. Riders out of order: in the past it was the defective chips that were reading early or late. Hopefully those chips have been replaced but if there are any others, the problem will continue until we identify and replace the offending chips.

Finishers not reported: almost always a chip code problem. In addition to the aforementioned code anomalies, you need to be aware that if you sign up day of race, you MUST give your chip code to SBO when you sign up, EVEN IF THEY HAVE THAT CODE IN THE SYSTEM ALREADY. The reason is that SBO will download all the pre-entries on the morning of the event and bring that to the race. When people sign up that day, they do not have the chip code info for you. They need to enter it there. Many riders in the past races are unwilling to bring their chip to registration (or have their chip code written down), and again, there is potential for human error.

Riders who did not enter are reported as finishing: Probably a chip code issue, but I don't think this is a rampant problem. I must admit I don't really know what's up on this one, maybe Ferg can address this?

Results on UCA site different from certified results: This did occur a couple of times. I would call this one a clerical error, BUT we did fix the results asap. The protocol for this is as follows — you complain to me, I check the official results, if there is a mistake I fix it! Believe me, I would love it if this never occured but in reality the files have to be modified in excel to be downloaded and I can completely understand an error occuring.

Time recorded is incorrect: Not the best guy to answer this one, maybe Ferg can help here. But as you can see by the other issues, it is likely more complicated than it looks on the outside...

As for your suggestion to track and document the errors, I am not sure we have anyone we can ask to do something like that.  I will tell you that the good folks who do our scoring and results and just as mystified as you are about the variety of issued that affect the timing. They do this for a living and are actively working to solve the problems. SBO and SBE have both invested a fair amount of money in this system, and sincerely want to make it perform as we all want it to.

 Here are some other problems we have encountered: Riders sign up after the 30 minute cut-off and the rider's chip info is either entered wrong or missing. Chip falls off bike. Chip is put in jersey pocket and does not read. Chip is mounted on underside of stem. Rider forgets chip, rents one at race and receives a DNF because the system does not recognize the rental code. Rider and wife accidentally switch chips.Stuff happens, but the chips get blamed nontheless.

I hope you all can see that this is a fairly complicated issue with many potential problems. What you are seeing at the races are some very good folks who are trying to sort it out at the same time put on an event. I personally feel the problems are being worked out and I still believe the system will work, giving us all what we want from it: accurate and timely results. I and the other UCA Directors will continue to support and assist the people at SBE and SBO as well as the officials to help get this sorted!

If there is something i missed, please ask again and we will attempt to answer.

Thanks, Jeff Clawson

As we could see from last weekend there was a long line following Dirk after the timetrial

. ( inserting stupid suggestion here ).....How about a yellow clipboard on the side of the trailer that we could write down the issue we have immediately following the race? ... Then everybody is not so fired up for getting a DNS after they are baked.